red and white line Inchicore 1930s/1940s

read-only archive of posts up to February 2010.
jellybeanJ
Probationary Member
Joined: 04 Feb 2009, 18:35

05 Feb 2009, 01:21 #1

Hi all,




I'm a Garaiste newbie here and just wondering can anyone help.... Would anyone have any information regarding a bus service that I think was a circle line
from Inchicore to town after the civil war. It was a fleet of single decker buses called the red and white bus line which I believe was run by a Mr. Peter
White. I understand this was acquired under a compulsory purchase order by CIE. Not sure what year. Would be brilliant if anyone had even a morsel of info
Image
Reply

65DONARD
Full Member
Joined: 17 Jul 2005, 00:22

05 Feb 2009, 07:34 #2

Hi 'jellybeanj' and welcome to Garaiste.




The only infomation I have on 'Red & White Bus Service' comes from a book called 'Dublin's Buses' (difficult to find a copy these
days!!).




It says with some info added by myself. "RED & WHITE BUS SERVICE. This remained independent until Autumn 1934. The fleet of five Fords and one Bedford
was numbered, ie. taken over by the DUTC(Dublin United Tramway Company, later Transport Company) although a 14 seater Chevrolet was withdrawn. The company
operated between College Street & Inchicore. This became DUTC route 78 and lasted until 1937 when it was replaced by an extended route 52A running from
Sandymount, itself replaced over the City - Inchicore section by route 21 in 1940 when that route changed over from trams to buses, the buses on the 21 were
extended beyond the tram terminus at the Black Lion to Ring St which had been the terminus for the original 78 & 52A. It is now some years since the 21
last ran, largly replaced by a re-routed 51 & present day 78 (Both originally ran via Inchicore Rd, both now via Emmet Rd). Note that DUTC route 78 is no
relation to the present route 78 introduced by CIE in 1953 and operating over a similar routing. The DUTC was the Dublin bus & tram operator until 1945,
CIE was set up in that year to run most bus and rail services in the Republic of Ireland. Hope this helps at least a little.




Anthony.
Last edited by 65DONARD on 05 Feb 2009, 07:52, edited 3 times in total.
Reply

jellybeanJ
Probationary Member
Joined: 04 Feb 2009, 18:35

06 Feb 2009, 01:40 #3

Hi Anthony,




Thanks a million for all your information. This seems to fit in with bits of info I have. My grandad Jem Byrne worked on the red and white line and
subsequently worked for CIE on the 49/49A route to Tallaght/Old Court/Bohernabreena (was fascinated by these buses as a kid) The Peter White I mentioned was
actually my Granny's brother on my fathers side. Always presumed purchase orders were from CIE... Is it possible DUTC could have acquired the bus line by
compulsory purchase order or were they a private company??




Many thanks,




Ger
Reply

Nigel.garaiste
Full Member
Joined: 18 Feb 2003, 04:27

06 Feb 2009, 01:52 #4

Hi Jellybean, interesting to find an enquiry on something so old! Do share any information YOU have on the company, too, even word of mouth from your family.
Any old photographs with the buses? There are a small number of people researching these old bus companies, although as you can imagine, information is
scarce.




I'm just looking up vehicle details, will post again in a few minutes.
Reply

Nigel.garaiste
Full Member
Joined: 18 Feb 2003, 04:27

06 Feb 2009, 02:19 #5

From the PSV Circle December 1965:




"533/4/7/50-2 were ex Red and White Bus Service, Dublin. 550 was formerly P. White, Dublin and 552 was formerly A. Stein, Dublin."




These are the fleet numbers of the six vehicles taken into the Dublin United Tramways Company fleet in Autumn 1934:




533, registration ZA 1496, 1933 Ford 30cwt 14 seater (withdrawn 1935)


534, registration ZA 729, 1933 Bedford 20 seater (withdrawn 1936)


537, registration ZI 8326, 1932 Ford 14 seater (withdrawn by 1936)


550, registration ZI 6913, 1931 Ford 30cwt 14 seater (withdrawn 1935)


551, registration ZI 7352, 1931 Ford 30cwt 14 seater (withdrawn 1935)


552, registration ZI 7701, 1931 Ford AA 18 seater (withdrawn 1935)




As can be seen, the Fords were quickly withdrawn, within a year or so, the Bedford lasting on to 1936.




There was a 14 seater Chevrolet as mentioned, registration Z 1605, although this never received a DUTC fleet number, being withdrawn immediately upon
acquisition in 1934.
Reply

jellybeanJ
Probationary Member
Joined: 04 Feb 2009, 18:35

06 Feb 2009, 13:02 #6

ImageHi Nigel,




That info is brilliant!!! Was just talking to my Dad and he told me that the garage/depot for the Red and White Line was situated near to the corner of Kevin
St. and New St. If you remember a glass or window shop across from the public toilets , or where they used to be ..... that's exactly where it was. I
actually remember that glass shop. You probably know this already but new legislation in 1932 when licensing was introduced and in 1933 compulsory acquisition
by statutory companies was facilitated. D.U.T.C took over the competing bus companies in its operation area which created a trasnport monopoly. It was then
decided to replace the trams with comparatively cheap diesel engined double deck buses. I found this on the askaboutireland site and explains to me how the red
and white service was sold.




I really appreciate the time you took to look up the info for me. My Dad is asking around the family if there are any old photos etc. I actually remember as a
kid getting the 49 to school. Was it a Bedford or Leyland ? It was one of the open back buses with the pole which of course I used to swing from Image. Also have great memories of stories from my grandad Byrne who worked that
route before I was born. He is still remembered by a few older people in Old Court and Bohenabreena. Would he have worked on a Bedford/Leyland as well?
Probably a stupid question but I am a newbie so forgive me Image

Thanks again,




Ger
Reply

Nigel.garaiste
Full Member
Joined: 18 Feb 2003, 04:27

06 Feb 2009, 15:13 #7

Image




This is NOT a picture of a Red and White bus. I did a quick trawl on the internet for a picture of a similar vehicle. This 14 seat Ford worked in Dorset in
the south of England, but is very similar in style to the Red and White buses. The Chevrolet would have looked similar, identifiable by bigger headlamps, and
the Bedford, again, very similar, but slightly longer, given it's 20 seats.




I was going to ask if your grandfather remembered anything else from those buses, any stories you have would be so valuable!




VERY interested to hear where their depot was! All information like that is so hard to come by now, so many thanks for that!
Last edited by Nigel.garaiste on 06 Feb 2009, 15:20, edited 4 times in total.
Reply

gnr302
Full Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2004, 01:30

07 Feb 2009, 18:21 #8

JellybeanJ,




Welcome to Garaiste! Your 49 to and from school would have been a Leyland.CIE fleet was nearly all Leyland. It depends on when you were at school. Up to 1957,
the 49 would have had Leyland Titan TD5s which dated from 1940. In 1957, this route got new Leyland Titan PD2/10s, R753, 754 and 755. These stayed on the route
until about 1970. I think there may have been open platform RAs, Titan PD3s, for a while then before forward entrance Altanteans replaced them.
Reply

65DONARD
Full Member
Joined: 17 Jul 2005, 00:22

07 Feb 2009, 20:44 #9

Thanks Nigel for the added bus details and thank you 'jellybeanj' for that info on the Red & White depot location, that is a superb piece of
information. I'am in Dublin this coming week and will check out the location and photograph the site, although there have been a lot of changes in this
area over the last few years and there is likely nothing left of the original site.




I used to work out of Ringsend Garage as a conductor between 1978 and 1983, mainly on the 50 & 65 routes but I did do the odd rest day work or overtime on
the 49/49A, one particular duty that I worked quite a lot was a morning 49 which started from Belgard Rd and ran via Bohernabreena and Oldcourt on the way into
Town, this was basically a school bus, and up until at least 1980 this particular journey was mostly operated with an open platform bus, ie. the Leyland RA
class. Would you have been travelling at this period of time?.


I cant remember exactly, but this journey was probably a universal working, there were a number of other journeys on the 49 using the RA's, mostly to from
Willwoods(Silvermints!!!) & Cookstown Industrial Estate, these journeys were not listed in the normal timetable as they were provided for schools and or
factory workers and so subject to cancellation when not required. The usual type of bus on the 49/49A during my time was the Van Hool AN68 type. When did your
Grand-Dad retire?, was he still on the 49s in 1978?, if so, the chances are I would have worked with him at some point, there were a couple of 'Byrnes'
at Ringsend durng my time.


The 49 at that time was quite a senior route, you needed to have done a lot of years before you could get a regular rota (or marked-in as they say) on this
route.




I was up at the old 49 turnaround point at Oldcourt last September, the cottages were still there but the whole road layout to the cottages has changed, I
actually got lost trying to find the cottages, there was diversions in the area and I ended up at some dead end road somewhere in the newish Woodstown
estate!!!.




I probably should point out that I have been living in London since I left the buses in Dublin in 1983, lots of family still in Dublin hence the regular trips
back home, by the way, I'm still driving buses and last September celebrated my 30th year on the buses!!!.




Anthony.
Last edited by 65DONARD on 07 Feb 2009, 21:00, edited 3 times in total.
Reply

Av320
Full Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2007, 06:23

07 Feb 2009, 23:05 #10

Shall we get this topic moved to the History section.
Reply