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Dublin Transport Authority Bill 2008: Committee Stage.

Section 1 agreed to.

SECTION 2.

Acting Chairman (Senator Maurice Cummins): Government amendments Nos. 57 and 73 to 81, inclusive, are consequential on Government amendment No. 1. Government amendments No. 1, 57 and 73 to 81, inclusive, may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Government amendment No. 1:

In page 11, between lines 13 and 14, to insert the following:

" "NRA" means National Roads Authority;".

Acting Chairman: Before calling on the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, I congratulate him on retaining his portfolio as Minister for Transport.

Senator David Norris: Hear, hear.

Minister for Transport (Deputy Noel Dempsey): Thank you very much. Amendment No. 1 is one of a series of technical amendments relating to how the National Roads Authority is referred to in the Bill. Current drafting preference is to shorten any multi-word title of a body, if it appears in several places in a Bill. We did that with CIE and the Railway Procurement Agency, RPA. This amendment inserts a definition of "National Roads Authority" as "NRA" into section 2. The other amendments grouped with this amendment, Nos. 57 and 73 to 81, inclusive, merely replace "National Roads Authority" with "NRA" wherever it is mentioned in the Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 2 not moved.

Section 2, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 3.

Senator Brendan Ryan: I move amendment No. 3:

In page 12, between lines 32 and 33, to insert the following:

"(c) the borough of Drogheda and".

This matter was raised on the occasion of the Minister's last visit to the House. The purpose of the amendment is to extend the remit of the authority to the Drogheda Borough Council area. Clearly the development of an integrated transport system for Dublin is not possible without including the outlying area of Drogheda.

On the previous occasion the Minister mentioned that County Louth is in the Border, midlands and west region and that is, perhaps, a reason for not including it. If that is the Minister's reply today, I ask him to expand on it. From my knowledge of the area and that of the Minister, it is an area that should be incorporated at this stage, albeit with the power for the Minister to introduce it later.

Senator David Norris: I hesitate before disagreeing with my good colleagues in the Labour Party but I have a little concern. It is alarming if Drogheda is to become part of the greater Dublin area. I know it is in the commuter belt. The effectiveness of the Dublin transport authority would be somewhat diluted if we take this much wider view. I could be wrong on this and I will listen to the Minister with great interest, but the effectiveness of a Dublin transport authority is that it deals specifically and directly with Dublin and not with a range of satellite areas. There are many people who commute, for example, from places such as Portlaoise and Tullamore. Are such places to be included as well? Unless Senator Ryan, whom I greatly respect, is in a position to provide special reasons Drogheda has a connection with Dublin, I would take a lot of persuading to agree to the amendment.

Deputy Noel Dempsey: There is a provision in section 3(c) to extend the geographical area of the greater Dublin area, GDA, by order of the Minister. The Dublin transport authority can make recommendations to me in that regard, as can other bodies such as local authorities and so on. The reason the Bill is drafted in its current form is that the GDA is a clearly defined area. It is useful to maintain the coherence between the GDA, as defined in this Bill, and not only the local authority boundaries but also the regional planning boundaries as well. It is very important that we continue to maintain that coherence. Although the boundaries of Drogheda borough encroach on the constituency of Meath East, the boundaries have been largely respected whether at regional or local authority level.

I agree with Senator Norris on this issue. The focus throughout has been on the greater Dublin area. However, leaving the text as it stands does not preclude the Dublin transport authority, once established, from deciding, for reasons of greater coherence in transport policy, to extend the greater Dublin area to include Drogheda, Mullingar, Portlaoise, Naas or other areas. At this point, it is preferable to focus on the area set out in the legislation. For this reason, I ask the Deputy to withdraw the amendment.

Senator Brendan Ryan: Senator Norris should note that the greater Dublin area, as defined in the Bill, includes counties Kildare, Wicklow and Meath. Expanding it to include the borough of Drogheda would be a logical and sensible step. As a resident of north County Dublin, it is difficult to draw a distinction between my area and Drogheda. I ask the Minister to reconsider the matter before Report Stage. I will withdraw the amendment while reserving the right to resubmit it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 3 agreed to.

Sections 4 to 9, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 10.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: I move amendment No. 4:

In page 14, paragraph (a), line 11, to delete "sustains" and substitute "promotes".

The amendment refers to the role infrastructure can play in generating economic growth. The national competitiveness strategy and the Minister's strategy statement acknowledge that in many cases the provision of transport infrastructure plays a significant role in generating economic growth. This is achieved in two ways. First, the delivery of the large infrastructural projects which form part of the national development plan will contribute towards sustaining parts of the economy when certain economic sectors are not faring as well as one would hope. Second, public transport infrastructure is a vital consideration for investors making decisions about whether to increase or maintain inward investment and, as such, sustains and accelerates investment. The rationale for the amendment is to show greater ambition in terms of the role public transport infrastructure can play in promoting, as opposed to sustaining, economic growth and competitiveness.

Deputy Noel Dempsey: The amendment proposes to replace the word "sustains" in section 10(a) with "promotes". While I would prefer to retain the current wording, I am prepared to examine the amendment before Report Stage to determine whether the proposed change would have legal implications. Pending that decision, I ask the Senator to withdraw the amendment.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: I will withdraw the amendment. This morning I examined the strategy statement the Minister prepared for his Department in which he makes clear the role infrastructure can play in the future of the economy. I accept the undertaking he has given and look forward to hearing his views on the amendment at a later stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Acting Chairman (): Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: I move amendment No. 5:

In page 14, paragraph (b), line 13, after "system" to insert "for all users".

The rationale for this amendment is to make explicit in the legislation the need to prioritise passengers at all times in the delivery of plans. I am sure the Minister is aware that the 16 bodies responsible for delivering transport services for Dublin city and region have at times placed their interests before those of passengers. I want to ensure in laying down the functions and objectives for the Dublin transport authority that we make it clear that the needs and interests of the users of transport services come first. The insertion of the words "for all users" would also recognise in law that some passengers using transport infrastructure have special needs. It would also ensure the decisions made by the Dublin transport authority take into account the needs of commuters.

The Dublin transport authority will have immense power. The power to step in and act as a provider of transport services of last resort is unprecedented in terms of dealing directly with consumers. In addition, the transfer of significant powers from organisations such as Dublin Bus, Iarnród Éireann and the Railway Procurement Agency is also a major development. I want to ensure the legislation provides that the new organisation will exercise its powers with the needs of passengers in mind.

Senator David Norris: I am afraid I am about to be disloyal to my colleagues again, even though I admire the work Senator Donohue has done and have told him this on a number of occasions. However, if we are required to provide a well functioning, attractive, integrated and safe public transport system, it will, by necessity, be "for all users". If the transport system is in place in this form, the phrase "for all users" becomes redundant because one will not establish a safe, well integrated system for only a few users. If the system is available in the form provided for in the legislation, it must, by logic, be available in that form for all users. For this reason, I do not see the reason for the amendment. I suppose it is rather mean-spirited of me to argue against an amendment tabled by one of my colleagues. I have done so a second time on a basis of logic and have probably lost Senator Donohue's support for my amendment. Naturally, being an egotist, I believe my amendment No. 6 is far superior in logic, although the Minister may not agree.

My amendment relates to safety. To provide that we have a well integrated and safe public transport system is aspirational and woolly. My amendment would append to this provision the words "in accordance with standards comparable to those set down by relevant bodies such as the H.S.A. and the Road Transport Authority". As this has the virtue of tying the provision with existing standards, it thereby ceases to be woolly and aspirational. The legislation will set out the actual standards by which the degree of safety, an extremely important matter, can be measured.

We, in this country, are lucky we have not had a succession of disasters in our public transport system. The reason is partly due to the efficiency and care of our public transport system and partly due to good fortune. From time to time, however, we have had unfortunate incidents involving buses, trains and so forth. If we are serious about safety, we must link it with existing, actual standards which can be measured because the wording, as it stands, is aspirational. It is akin to being in favour of virtue and good living - everybody is but there is nothing by which it can be tested.

Deputy Noel Dempsey: In regard to amendment No. 5, as Senator Norris indicated, it is presumed when passing legislation that it is for everybody and that it does not need to be explicitly stated. The Senator made the point well and I do not need to elaborate on that. Nevertheless, it does not do any great damage to the Bill to include the phrase "for all users". I have no objection to that and I accept the Senator's amendment.

In regard to amendment No. 6, it is extremely important bodies like that which we are setting up have a focus on the consumer. Senator Donohoe spoke about the importance of looking after the consumer and the strength and powers this body will have. He is right that it is important it has extensive powers and that it is in a position to look after consumers.

Clearly, safety would be a major concern but I am not anxious to set up another body which sets out another set of standards for health and safety, and I agree with Senator Norris in this regard. The bodies are already in place and they have their codes of practice, guidelines and legislation to back them up. One such body is the Railway Safety Commission. I do not want the Dublin transport authority getting into this area as well.

I accept the principle behind the amendment that we should have a very safe public transport infrastructure. That should be to the forefront of not only the Dublin transport authority's mind but that of the individual organisations as well. I accept that is the spirit of the amendment but it is more than adequately addressed by leaving independent bodies to make those judgments and to inform the individual organisations or the Dublin transport authority that safety is assured.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: I thank the Minister for responding in the manner he has. I take his point in regard to the language I have used. I might look at it again as we move through this process. The general objectives of the authority are vital in terms of the work it will do. With the exception of persons with disabilities, the customer, or the passenger, is not mentioned. I accept the Minister's point that there is a presumption that the passenger will be involved. However, that presumption has not carried weight in the context of some of the other organisations we will discuss later. I thank the Minister for what he said.

Amendment agreed to.

Senator David Norris: I move amendment No. 6:

In page 14, paragraph (b), line 13, after "system" to insert the following:

"in accordance with standards comparable to those set down by relevant bodies such as the H.S.A. and the Road Transport Authority".

I am moderately happy, although not as happy as Senator Donohoe. I say well done to him. He got a goal but I appear to have missed.

Senator John Ellis: The Senator hit the crossbar.

12 o'clock

Senator David Norris: The Minister seemed to address Senator Donohoe in regard to my amendment, which was rather odd. I do not agree with the Minister and I might consider it again on Report Stage. The Minister said he was sympathetic to the intention of the amendment but did not seem to wish to be specific about it. I do not understand his hesitation because I would have thought exactly the same logic applied to the earlier amendment in that it does not do any damage but simply sets standards. I am not quite sure if the Minister is saying there is a legislative requirement on the Health and Safety Authority and the Dublin transport authority to take an interest. I am simply talking about the application of comparable standards and giving indicators.

As I said in respect of the previous amendment, although perhaps I misunderstand it, if a public transport system is provided, it cannot exclude the users. It is for the users. Although I am very happy for Senator Donohoe, it is a tautology. I believe I understand what the Minister is saying because it is, to a certain extent, a public relations gloss as it indicates to the public that the transport system desperately loves them, will cherish them and will give them the kind of transport system they want. On that basis, I do not understand his reluctance to accept an amendment, the principle of which he accepted. I will not press the amendment to a vote but I reserve the right to resubmit it on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 10, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 11.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: I move amendment No. 7:

In page 14, subsection (1)(d), between lines 37 and 38, to insert the following:

"(ix) development and implementation of a cohesive cycling strategy.".

A point I made in respect of other amendments was that this organisation will have immense power in terms of its ability to intervene and deal with transport and commuter issues in the greater Dublin area. One of the areas in which a lack of enforcement and of integration is most evident is in respect of the problem cyclists in the greater Dublin area face, especially in the city centre and the inner suburbs.

Occasionally I take my life into my hands and hop on my bicycle to get around the constituency and to come into the House. During the infrequent journeys I make I encounter at first hand the huge difficulties cyclists face in getting around, such as cycle lanes ending for no reason. There is a lack of cycle lanes on our main thoroughfares and streets, including O'Connell Street. For some people, cycling is the main way of getting around the city.

I am very conscious that a safe cycling campaign has been set up and successfully led in this region. It highlights the need for more people to hop on bicycles and for better facilities to allow them to do so. Organisations have played their part in making this happen, including the decision of Dublin City Council to prohibit heavy goods vehicles from the city centre and the quays. Therefore, it is incumbent on this authority to promote cycling as a mode of transport in the city and in the greater Dublin area and to state that it will intervene to make this happen when necessary.

Recently the Minister made a presentation at a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport. He is very much aware that the work we are doing on a modal shift is blatantly inadequate to deliver the environmental and transport objectives of the Government and of all of us. We need to acknowledge cycling as playing a greater role in dealing with these issues. We need to give every encouragement to people to change and give this authority the ability to intervene to make it attractive and remove obstacles preventing people from getting out of their cars and on to their bicycles.

Senator David Norris: On this occasion I am very happy to support Senator Donohoe. This is an excellent and significant amendment. He is quite right to talk about a cohesive cycle strategy. There is a total lack of coherence in the provision of cycle lanes at present. Senator Donohoe mentioned O'Connell Street and I believe he suggested there were no cycle lanes on it. There has been a recent development because I walk up and down O'Connell Street all the time. Perhaps walking is the most environmentally friendly method of transporting oneself around. There is a cycle lane but it is only on half of O'Connell Street, which is crazy. Perhaps the council is in the process of putting in a cycle lane which would be very welcome. There are little poles sticking up which is very good but that should be done the whole length of O'Connell Street and on both sides. I say this with some strength because on several occasions I have been knocked off my bicycle on O'Connell Street due to the lack of these lanes.

Throughout the city we have cycle lanes that just disappear. In some places parts of cycle lanes form part of existing car lanes. How can they compete? How can cars drive without at least one third of the car being in the cycle lane in this situation? We need logic, coherence and consistency in the system. Cycling is environmentally friendly and will lead to a decrease in pollution, although this may be only marginal until it becomes more popular. It will also relieve congestion. If a significant number of people who routinely drive cars as single occupants transfer to bicycles, this will reduce traffic congestion.

If the Minister and the relevant city officials are actively considering the proposals put forward by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport with regard to removing private vehicles from O'Connell Street, particularly while work on the installation of the metro is being carried out, cyclists should be given privilege at that time. The metro works provide a glorious opportunity to make special provision for cyclists and to retain that privilege. We should not just allow access for public services but let them share the space in O'Connell Street with cyclists.

Senator John Ellis: We should give the same consideration to the issues affecting pedestrians as we are giving to cyclists. I agree with Senator Norris that there is a problem with regard to proper walking areas, not just in Dublin, but in other urban and rural areas. People often walk on public roads at night without reflective gear and as a result we have serious problems. Cycle lanes in the city of Dublin often end suddenly and nobody knows where cyclists should be afterwards. This is wrong. We need to consider the issues affecting both cyclists and pedestrians. Currently cyclists jink in and out between traffic and are a menace to other road users. In many cases they have been the cause of accidents, in particular motor cyclists.

Will the Minister consider measures to deal with both cycling and pedestrian issues? I understand this Bill deals with Dublin, but we also need the issue of the safety of pedestrians on rural roads to be dealt with. Pedestrians take their lives in their hands on some roads. I have noticed that some towns have ring road footpaths for walkers, including Longford where there is a mile and a half-long footpath alongside the N4. Anybody passing this route will see up to 20 people using the footpath for walking. This is the sort of facility we need so that people can walk in comfort and safety.

The Minister must deal with the issues relating to cycle lanes and with the behaviour of cyclists. Some of the cycle lanes currently in Dublin city are only a joke. They exist in name, but are abused by everybody.

Deputy Noel Dempsey: I thank all the Senators who contributed on this. I accept the point being made with regard to the importance of cycling and walking. It is important we keep both issues together. I accept the principle of Senator Donohoe's proposal with regard to cycling, but we need to include both issues. Section 71(7) makes provisions with regard to cycling and walking and we will consider strengthening those provisions in light of this amendment. I will also take another look at this section to see if we can strengthen it.

I am anxious not to oblige the DTA to develop a raft of different strategies. I will, therefore, see if I can consolidate the provisions on cycling and walking in either section 11 or section 71. I accept the principle of the amendment.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: I thank the Minister for his response. He has acknowledged that we are providing for many different modes of transport. I want to ensure that cycling is specifically mentioned as one of these. He made a fair point that we need to ensure the new organisation is not overloaded with too many priorities that could conflict with each other. However, it is important that cycling is mentioned, particularly in light of the lack of integration in other bodies, if the strategy is to work. If the DTA is about anything, it is about integration.

Senator David Norris: Senator Donohoe is very gracious, but I am inclined to be more combative on his behalf. The Minister said he accepts the principle of the amendment, but does not want the DTA overburdened. That tells me that nothing will be done. There is a conflict between not wishing to burden the authority with extra proposals and saying he will consider strengthening the proposals in section 11 or section 71.

The problem is that the coherence of cycle lanes has not been effectively addressed in Dublin. If the DTA will not do it, who will? Or is it the case that nobody will do it and it will remain just an aspiration? If the Minister thinks that to include this as part of the brief of the new authority would be too burdensome, this means he does not wish to burden it with the responsibility. The inevitable consequence of that is that it is unlikely to be done. It certainly will not be done with the speed or efficiency this House seems to want.

I urge the Minister, if he believes in developing this area, to include the provision in a firm manner. If to do it is considered too burdensome, it will not be done and we all know that. We should be open and honest about the issue and say we will either do it or not. If we are to do it, there is no harm in including the provision in the Bill.

Senator John Ellis: Perhaps the Minister could consider dealing with this on Report Stage. There is consensus on the issue here. I know there is no amendment to cover the issues as we have raised them today. Will the Minister, therefore, consider bringing in something on Report Stage that will encompass our aspirations?

Deputy Noel Dempsey: Senator Norris misinterpreted what I said about not burdening the DTA with a huge number of strategies. This does not mean I think there should not be a cycling and walking strategy, but I have reservations about including separate cycling, walking and QBC strategies and so on. If the Senator looks at section 71(1) he will see that provision is being made for agreements between local authorities for quality bus corridors, cycle lanes and so on.

The principle behind the amendment and behind the ideas put forward here is that Senators want cycling and walking to be explicitly mentioned in the Bill. I undertake, either in section 11 or section 71, to emphasise that. I accept the principle and the spirit of the amendment before us.

Senator David Norris: Could the Minister direct me to the specific provision in section 71? I am looking at it but cannot see it. I am sure the Minister is correct and it is there. Could I have his assistance because I do not see cycling mentioned there?

Deputy Noel Dempsey: It is section 71(7).

Senator David Norris: I thank the Minister.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: My understanding of what the Minister said is that on Report Stage he will come back and either in section 11 or section 71 make specific reference to the need to facilitate cycling and walking strategies in the greater Dublin area. If that is what the Minister is saying I am happy to withdraw this amendment.

Deputy Noel Dempsey: We will have it in the Bill, although possibly in some other suitable section.

Senator David Norris: I have looked at the section to which the Minister drew my attention and 71(7)(c) refers to measures to "increase travel by public transport, bicycle or on foot as an alternative to the private car". I would like the Minister to come back, as Senator Ellis said, on Report Stage with something that deals with one of the central points of the issue, namely, the lack of coherence in cycle lanes. That is definitely not in section 71(7)(c) at all, which refers only to increasing bicycle traffic.

One could meet the requirements of this Bill by increasing unsafe cycling. We must direct attention to the provision of fully coherent cycle lanes. Deputy Ellis emphasised my point that one often finds cycle lanes ending at a traffic light, where the road goes on. What do cyclists do? Do they get off their bicycles and get on a bus, packing up the bicycles and putting them on the roof? That is what we are getting at.

I am grateful to the Minister for his help but section 71(7)(c) just talks about an increase in cycling, not about the safety of cyclists and the coherence of cycle lanes. It must refer to these. I am happy to leave the amendment. It would be an impertinence for me to press Senator Donohoe's amendment, but I urge the Minister to come back to me on Report Stage with an amendment that addresses the specific point of the provision, coherence and safety of cycle lanes in the city of Dublin. That is not addressed by the section to which the Minister very kindly drew my attention.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: I move amendment No. 8:

In page 14, subsection (1), between lines 37 and 38, to insert the following:

"(e) provide and issue licenses under the Road Transport Act 1932 for public transport operators operating within the GDA.".

This is one of the most important issues related to this legislation. The amount of power this organisation will have for dealing with transport strategy and needs in Dublin will be immense. If I look at the amount of time we have spent during my short time in this House talking about organisations such as the HSE or the NRA a number of themes consistently emerge. The first theme is the lack of accountability such organisations have to Members of this House. The second theme is the non-existence of a role for elected politicians in any of these organisations. There would be much consensus among different Members on these points on accountability and the role of politicians. The third issue, which this amendment is about, is the need for competition. There will probably be much less unanimity on this point than on the other two points I have made. I will still press the amendment as it is very important to commuters in Dublin and their needs.

I propose this amendment on two grounds. The first is a very practical point. Reports that have been done on the transport needs of the greater Dublin area, whether work by the Dublin Transportation Office or the more recent draft report produced by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport which is in circulation in the media, point to the fact that an additional 350 buses are needed for the Dublin area. They also point to the fact that bus investment has been the loser in the capital investment decisions by this Government over the last number of years. Investment has gone to projects such as the Luas and metro. Despite this, bus transport is still the most popular form of transport in the area about which we are talking. The organisation that provides it, Dublin Bus, does not have Government funding to provide the additional 350 buses, at a minimum, that will be needed to deal with commuting issues in the Dublin area.

My second reason for proposing this amendment is more policy driven than the first. I strongly believe competition is needed to meet the transport issues we are dealing with. We have much bus capacity directly funded by the taxpayer. That is a good thing and should stay, although it will go out to tender based on EU law. However, the best way to ensure that capacity is well used and taxpayers' money is well spent is if the people who are spending that money and providing that service know there is an alternative out there for the passenger to use and that it is feasible that if they do not do their job well, that job will be given to somebody else. It is important we clarify that the Dublin transport authority has a role to play in introducing and leading greater competition in the bus market in the Dublin area for the policy rationale I have outlined and also on the practical grounds that the money to meet the pressing needs of Dublin's commuters does not and will not come from the Exchequer.

In making this point I do not propose complete deregulation of the bus market. I lived in London for many years and saw the mess made of the bus market there because of the decision to completely deregulate and hand it over to a number of competing companies. However, there are other models, as the Minister is aware, that allow the private sector to play a role in providing bus services in line with a public sector that also provides services. I cannot see why this organisation should not have the power to say it wants to provide new radial routes for the greater Dublin area - routes that go around the city as opposed to linear ones that go through it - and allow the private sector to put a case on why it can provide that service well. It could ask Dublin Bus to do the same and if the private sector can do a better job, it should hand that business over.

Many services in operation are provided by the private sector - the Swords route is the one with which people are most familiar. There are also services near Dublin Airport which operate in a kind of limbo as we wait for the legislation on the Road Transport Act 1932 to be cleared up. I would like this legislation to be amended to state that competition has a role to play in providing additional services and ensuring taxpayers' money is well spent.

Competition is the spur that will deliver this as opposed to the Minister, as he is doing, commissioning a report to see how taxpayers' money is being spent through Dublin Bus and other organisations. We cannot have a model that means every couple of years we commission another centralised report to see how this money is being spent. We need to allow the dynamic forces of competition to operate within a regulated model to ensure the taxpayers' money is well spent and that Dublin commuters get good, new services and better use of existing ones.

Senator Fiona O'Malley: I congratulate the Minister on his reappointment. I am pleased he was reappointed to this position as he has a reputation as a reformer, which is what we need in this area. I also like it when consensus breaks out in politics, which is why I encourage the Minister to consider the point made by Senator Donohoe. One cannot argue with it. We must recognise that competition is an important factor in the development of our transport service. As Senator Donohoe eloquently explained, it is about improving commuter services to the public. The Minister himself has mentioned the urgency of the requirement to review the Road Transport Act 1932, which was, after all, established to restrict bus services in competition with the railways. That was its effect. I encourage the Minister to recognise the fact that the overhaul of the 1932 Act is a vital necessity for the development of bus services in the Dublin area and throughout the country.

I will speak further on this issue when discussing later amendments where it will be more relevant. However, it does worry me that the effect of this Bill, or sections of it, will not be fully effective in the absence of a review of the 1932 Act. This would neuter somewhat the Minister's determination to develop a good public transport sector and particularly, but not exclusively, the bus service. There are many providers who can provide services in Dublin and should be allowed to do so. Senator Donohoe's amendment recognises this. I hope that in an area such as public transport, in which we are trying - for a variety of reasons, including traffic congestion and climate change - to develop a more efficient system, we can achieve a political consensus. There is only one way to provide better services and that is to allow more buses on various routes.

I agree with Senator Donohoe's point about deregulation of markets and learning from the experiences of other jurisdictions. We should not make the same mistakes that were made in other areas. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say on this issue and I hope he will consider an amendment similar to that put down by Senator Donohoe. We must aim to develop a better service for commuters and the Bill will be enforced and strengthened as a result of its inclusion.

Senator David Norris: Speaking as an old-fashioned socialist, albeit one about whom the odour of champagne and smoked salmon occasionally lingers, I was concerned about the first part of Senator Donohoe's speech. However, I rather warmed to him when he recounted his experience in London and his hesitation about deregulation. I would not like to think this Bill was the opening shot in a campaign to privatise CIE, Bus Éireann and other companies. I like the idea of public service and public utility.

We heard on the Order of Business this morning about the importance of community. I do not believe competition should be allowed to become the little tin god totem it is widely viewed as in this society. That is one of the things that is wrong with this society. It does not surprise me that my good friend Senator O'Malley, from the Progressive Democrats, should optimistically detect consensus in this area. I hope there is not too much consensus because such worship of the false god of competition is one of the problems of public life in Ireland. I am interested in the provision of good services, as is everybody else.

Senator Fiona O'Malley: Indeed.

Senator David Norris: However, that includes a social aspect. I know in her heart Senator O'Malley also supports this.

With regard to the provision of extra buses, they may be necessary, but certainly not in O'Connell Street, as has been mentioned. One could not get another bus into O'Connell Street. The buses are end-to-end. One can hardly squeeze in a taxi. The buses are lined up on the street, they pull in to bus stops, and then they hold up an entire line of traffic.

Senator Donohoe raised a sort of false dichotomy when he invoked the various elements of public transport - buses, metro, trains and so on - and then said that buses were the most popular type of public transport. Of course they are. They are the only method available for most of the city. It is not credible to say that people have chosen bus over metro in the absence of a metro service. The metro does not exist. The population of Dublin would overwhelmingly opt for the metro if it were available. It is by far the best system.

I would like to see every bus out of O'Connell Street. They pollute the place and they make it unhealthy and dangerous for pedestrians. If we consider the way the paving and markings are laid out in the central piazza, it is a wonder nobody has been killed there by a bus. I would like to see the buses out of there. However, this will have to wait until there is a proper and full metro service.

I would not like to see a situation in which, as Senator Donohoe accepts, Bus Éireann is not given money for extra buses. I have heard the Minister speak on this issue before - I am not sure whether it was in this House or on the radio - and he gave some reasons he did not provide money to CIE for extra buses. I would not like to think that the Minister would starve CIE of buses and then undercut it through the private sector.

I want to signal that even if I am alone in this, I am against making a god out of competition. I am against deregulation and the privatisation of our public transport system. Let us make it better and more efficient and ruthlessly pare out whatever fat there may be, but I want to live in a society in which we provide services for our citizens and not one in which services are provided to allow individuals to make a profit.

Senator Fiona O'Malley: They are not mutually exclusive.

Senator David Norris: As a community we should provide public services out of public funds.

Senator John Ellis: We have an awkward problem here. If we have full deregulation, people will take up licences and try to run businesses on routes that are unsustainable. This is the first issue we will run into and it will cause serious problems. At present, a number of operators provide services into the city from outside. Will an operator be obliged to seek a second licence from the DTA rather than using his or her original licence under the 1932 Act? This is something we need to consider in the context of this Bill. I would not like to see the doors opened so that anybody can get a licence without giving a commitment to provide a long-term service. The provision of a short-term service might cause other operators to abandon a route, so that when the short-term operator leaves the route we will end up with no service.

We could also end up with a situation such as that which exists currently in the area of taxi licensing. We have gone from one extreme to the other. Every time one gets into a taxi the driver tells one that business has gone through the floor, and if he knows where one is going one will get twice the earful. We should err on the side of caution when it comes to the issuing of licences. There should be strict control and, if at all possible, the issuing of licences should be left to one body rather than having two or three groups involved. If it is everyone's business it will be no one's business in the end. There will be neither consistency nor viable routes.

Senator Brendan Ryan: We will not be supporting this amendment. Obviously we have differences with Fine Gael on policy matters regarding the licensing of buses and so on. It is not appropriate that policy matters as important as this should be dealt with in a Bill which is designed to set up the Dublin transport authority. By all means let us have a debate about deregulation and transport in general but let that be in an open sense rather than in one section of a Bill such as this.

Deputy Noel Dempsey: I thank the Senators for their contributions to this debate. To a certain extent I echo what Senator Ryan said. Under Transport 21 we have included in the programme for Government a commitment to improving bus services by reforming the bus licensing provisions under the Road Transport Act 1932. We aim to facilitate optimum provision of services by providing a level playing field for all the market participants, public and private. It is my intention that, following the enactment of the Dublin Transport Authority Bill, the Government would bring forward a Bill on public transport regulation to reform the licensing system of 1932. If there was ever a consensus on anything, perhaps for different reasons on different sides, it is that the 1932 Act must be reformed and changed. I had to give priority to one piece of legislation and this is the one which has received it. I assure Members of the House that the Government intends to follow this with a public transport regulation Bill. In that context it would be inappropriate to pre-empt a major review of that existing legislation by giving powers to the authority at this time to issue licences under the existing arrangements. Everyone agrees that they are outdated and unresponsive and we have had some good examples of that recently.

The proposed Bill on public transport regulation will deal with the replacement of the Road Transport Act 1932 and the elements of the Transport Act 1958 that relate to the provision of bus services by State bus companies. Under that legislation the bus licensing regime will be designed in a manner consistent with the new EU public service obligations, PSO, that will come into force in December 2009. It will apply to all commercial bus services, including those provided by Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus. It will also provide new criteria regarding a system of penalties and this will offer appropriate deterrents for breaches of the licensing system by those considering application. As a replacement of the 1932 Act, the legislation put forward by Government will be, in general terms, a contract with the providers of transport. The contracts will contain certain stipulations and criteria that must be met. People will compete at that level for the business whether via funded services or commercial ones. Until that time the Bill before the House will allow contracts to be put in place over the next few years with the existing public transport providers in the greater Dublin area - Bus Éireann, Bus Átha Cliath and Iarnród Éireann - for services already in operation.

With regard to public transport I am no believer in privatisation or in competition for the sake of it. I have neither ideological hang-ups nor an agenda about this. I have said as much to unions and to the management of the companies involved. I have two responsibilities. One is to try to provide a safe, efficient, economical and good quality customer service for all consumers in the greater Dublin area who want to use public transport or transport in general. I have said to management and unions in the public transport companies - Bus Éireann and so on - that my other responsibility as Minister is to ensure we get absolute value for money for the very substantial amounts of taxpayers' money put into the system. I am not prepared to have a situation where taxpayers' money is fed into a public transport system that is inefficient, has bad work practices and which does not deliver a quality customer service. I do not say that is what we have at the moment but the reason I have asked the review to be undertaken is to see how well we are utilising the capacity we have. Are there practices and efficiencies that would improve it? Are there things that we must do regarding current routes, for instance? Might they be subvented in certain cases where at present they are not and are therefore causing problems for Bus Éireann or Bus Átha Cliath? On the other hand, might there be routes being subvented that do not require it because they are commercial? We must ensure we have all this information before we make final decisions in this regard.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by almost all speakers in the House, whether or not they advocated competition, as to the merits of having a public transport system that is efficient and effective and which gives a good quality customer service. I have read much literature since coming to this office that urged blanket privatisation and the throwing open of everything to competition. That is not the solution. There must be a balance and we intend to keep that. The existing routes that Bus Éireann and Bus Átha Cliath operate will be signed up for by contract, with criteria ordaining what must be delivered. Under EU PSO regulation that contract will be available for five years, subject to review after that period. In that way we can ensure we will get the efficiency, effectiveness and value for money. The other side of this, as I said to Senator Donohoe, is that operators can and are willing to provide services on a commercial basis in the greater Dublin area. We will encourage that and will continue to issue licences for this. We will try to ensure the situation continues in this way in the interim.

When we talk about competition, I have a concern. I know from speaking to unions and workers in Bus Éireann and Bus Átha Cliath that we must have a level playing field. I believe strongly that if we were to throw the market open completely or even move in that direction, the one thing we would have to guard against is the competition we talk about being brought about on the backs of people who work in transport. In other words, I do not want private companies coming in that will pay half wages or less than minimum wages to people if they can get away with it. Neither do I want companies that will offer inferior working conditions and so be able to compete with a public transport company on that basis.

Senator David Norris: Hear, hear.

Deputy Noel Dempsey: That is the difference in their profit. It is something against which I want to guard.

I ask the Senator to withdraw the amendment. It is not particularly appropriate at this stage, but I assure him that the general intent is to provide a public transport system of which we can all be proud. Where it is possible, we should provide commercial routes and competition on those routes.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: I thank the Minister for his response. I will comment on some of the points made by my colleagues during the discussion on this amendment. The operation of competition and trying to advance the needs of our society are not incompatible. I make this point in some trepidation because I am clashing with my eloquent and experienced colleague, Senator Norris. However, the idea that those who sit on the left - even if it is the left that is occasionally associated with champagne and salmon, as the Senator mentioned - have a monopoly over the idea of social justice is one that I reject. I am doing this because I am trying to help people in our society who may be less well off and to ensure that the services available to everybody can be improved. I strongly believe that competition can play a role in this.

In 1997, we were spending €20 billion funding services for the taxpayer. We are now spending €54 billion, yet we are still pointing to the deficiencies within those services. We must acknowledge that our ability to deliver such quantum increases in the future will not be as great as it was in the past. In the right framework, competition is the antidote to this.

Another issue on which we will spend time talking is inflation. How will we deal with that if it is not through ensuring that competition plays a proper role in some sectors of our society? The idea that competition and social progress are contradictory or inconclusive--

Senator David Norris: It is not always, but it frequently can be so.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: --is something with which I strongly disagree. Competition can play an appropriate role at times in ensuring that the needs of our entire community and society can be met. I have great respect for Senator Norris and the points that he has made about this Bill and the Seanad. If we do not make these points now about this authority and this Bill, then the train will leave the station. This organisation will have extraordinary power to deal with many of the issues we are facing here. The ability to deliver competition can and should play a role in meeting the needs of Dublin's commuters.

In saying all that, I agree entirely with the point made by the Minister a moment ago. I do not want such competition to be at the expense of people who are working in some of the organisations that might come in here in the future. I do not want to see people being paid a fraction of the wages they need to look after their families and so on. However, the Booz Allen Hamilton report on subvention payments to Dublin Bus, commissioned by the Minister, pointed out that the company and others got more than €230 million of taxpayers' money. In fairness, that report also stated that in many cases Dublin Bus is making great use of that money. From personal experience dealing with Dublin Bus in my constituency, I have found it to be a very professional and progressive organisation. None the less, the point still stands. New services will be required that cannot be provided by Dublin Bus, so we should look elsewhere for them to be provided. In the new financial environment we are facing, it is vital that we have a spur of competition to ensure taxpayers' money is well spent.

I am not advocating the kind of complete deregulation that is occasionally used to rubbish these arguments. We can see that is not working. We should set in place a framework to ensure the private sector is allowed to provide services to ensure that commuters can benefit and to ensure money is well spent. That is not tin pot competition nor does it represent an ideological approach to this issue. It is an attempt to come up with a model that will ensure our money is well spent in providing transport services and that the needs of commuters are better met than they are at the moment.

Senator Fiona O'Malley: I hope I do not hinder Senator Donohoe's prospects when I say that he is a terrible loss to the Progressive Democrats Party.

Senator David Norris: Hear, hear.

Senator Fiona O'Malley: There is no point wasting time in repeating what he said, because I agree with every single word of it. We do not believe in privatisation or competition for their own sake. Things naturally need to be regulated and the public interest must be uppermost when doing so. That includes providing services from a variety of sources, including the private sector. We are advocating competition for routes in transport services, not on routes. That is an important distinction and explains what has gone wrong in other jurisdictions. We do not need to repeat those mistakes.

1 o'clock

I understand the Minister's point about the need to reform the Road Transport Act 1932. Will he consider delaying the order that brings into effect sections 47 to 56 of the Bill? These sections deal with issuing licences under the 1932 Act. Will he delay bringing these sections into effect until he has conducted this review? That is an important compromise. I accept his point that one Bill had to take priority. In our enterprising economy, we cannot have the type of statist, protectionist legislation represented by the 1932 Act. It is not viable in this day and age. By delaying these sections, we can get the effect of the positive things in this Bill while not being damaged by the restrictive practices that might be allowed to develop in enacting this section. The legislative programme for developing the transport sector might be somewhat disjointed.

Senator Donohoe pointed out that there are positive aspects to competition. He was right. It is infuriating that some people constantly have the notion that competition is always bad. It is not bad. It delivers in all areas. It would be generous of people to recognise that there are positive aspects to competition. Would the Minister be disposed to deferring the introduction of the order to give effect to this section until the review of the 1932 legislation and amendments to it have taken place?

Deputy Noel Dempsey: The sections to which the Senator referred deal with the provision of public transport as it operates at present. The licensing regime for PSO regulated services does not apply to the commercial service, to which the Senator adverted, for example, in the case of an operator wishing to compete on a commercial basis. Those sections deal with the contracts that must be in place to provide largely subvented services in those areas. Therefore, it would not be practical simply to suspend that provision for whatever period would be required.

I believe the Senator is making the point that we should have competition on various routes. There will be open competition on routes other than the existing subvented routes, namely, the PSO routes, once this Bill is enacted.

An Cathaoirleach: Is the amendment being pressed?

Senator Paschal Donohoe: Yes.

Amendment put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 11; Níl, 29.

Tá
Bradford, Paul.	Buttimer, Jerry.
Cummins, Maurice.	Donohoe, Paschal.
Fitzgerald, Frances.	Healy Eames, Fidelma.
McFadden, Nicky.	O'Reilly, Joe.
Phelan, John Paul.	Twomey, Liam.
Ross, Shane.

Níl
Boyle, Dan.	Brady, Martin.
Butler, Larry.	White, Mary.
Callely, Ivor.	Cannon, Ciaran.
Carty, John.	Cassidy, Donie.
Corrigan, Maria.	Daly, Mark.
Ellis, John.	Feeney, Geraldine.
Glynn, Camillus.	Hanafin, John.
Hannigan, Dominic.	Keaveney, Cecilia.
Leyden, Terry.	MacSharry, Marc.
Wilson, Diarmuid.	Norris, David.
Ó Domhnaill, Brian.	O'Brien, Francis.
O'Donovan, Denis.	O'Malley, Fiona.
Ormonde, Ann.	O'Toole, Joe.
Phelan, Kieran.	Walsh, Jim.
Ryan, Brendan.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Maurice Cummins and Paschal Donohoe; Níl, Senators Diaramuid Wilson and Dan Boyle.

Amendment declared lost.

Section 11 agreed to.

SECTION 12.

An Cathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 9, 10 and 11 are related and will be discussed together.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: I move amendment No. 9:

In page 15, subsection (5)(c), line 28, after "GDA" to insert the following: "and local authority Development Plans and Local Area Plans in force in the GDA".

I wish to congratulate the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, on keeping his position as Minister for Transport, which I forgot to say earlier.

Senator John Ellis: We are all guilty of that.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: I wish the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, the best of luck for the rest of his term in office.

There are two separate issues covered by these amendments. I will deal with the work that local authorities do using local area plans and the master plans and then the issue of the jurisdiction of the greater Dublin area, GDA, and the work the authority will do.

One impressive aspect of this legislation is the way it deals with the integration of land use and planning with the provision of transport. The Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, has correctly pointed out the need for this and the legislation will allow that integration to happen. I move this amendment because many local authorities have been engaged in work on the preparation of local area plans which, as the Minister for Transport is aware, are part of the city and county development plans and make recommendations for particular areas. This legislation would be improved if we were to refer to the work and role of local area plans in the planning aspect of this legislation.

Take, for example, the work being done at the moment by Dublin City Council with the preparation of the draft Phibsborough/Mountjoy Local Area Plan. I raise this plan as it refers to the provision of additional Luas lines in future and the proposed metro north. The plan makes clear that the delivery of the objectives of the local area plan, which deals with sustainable community living and the need for good public transport, can only be realised if the public transport infrastructure is in place initially. Given that one of the reasons for this legislation is to integrate land use, planning and transport infrastructure, it would be improved if we made specific reference to the work of local authorities in developing local area plans. This applies whether the plans are placed on a statutory footing - in other words if they actually pass into law - or as in some cases, are still in draft stage and on the way to being passed. Such an improvement would deliver, on a local level, the integration the Minister for Transport seeks. This is the thinking behind the amendment.

Amendment No. 10 refers to the Grangegorman Development Agency which is the statutory body being established to deliver a new third level facility for Dublin and the country. The Bill refers to the strategic plan but the Grangegorman Development Agency will deliver both a strategic plan and a master plan. In fact, much of the work taking place in preparing the strategic plan for the delivery of the Grangegorman campus focuses on the delivery of the master plan as opposed to the strategic plan which is referred to in this legislation. My understanding is that the difference between the strategic and the master plans is that one of them looks at the area inside the cordon of the Grangegorman campus while the other is more conscious of the broader physical environment around the Grangegorman area. Just as there is reference to the Dublin Docklands Development Authority master plan, I believe the reference to the Grangegorman Development Agency would be improved if it were to say the strategic plan and the master plan, which are different instruments.

Amendment No. 11 refers to section 12(5)(h) and the trends and requirements of persons travelling from outside the greater Dublin area into the greater Dublin area. Given the amount of travel taking place inside the greater Dublin area which is the cause of many of the issues we need to deal with, this section of the Bill could be improved if the needs of people travelling within the greater Dublin area were considered as well as those of people travelling from outside the area into the area and vice versa. This is the thinking behind these amendments and I await the Minister's response.

Deputy Noel Dempsey: I thank the Senator for the points he has raised. With reference to Amendment No. 9, the preparation of a transport strategy is a high level process which covers all seven local authority areas in the greater Dublin area. In that context it is appropriate for the authority to consider the relevant development plans applicable to those areas. This is already provided for in section 12(5)(c) and is well catered for at county level. I do not think it is either feasible or a good idea to ask the authority to go dig below that, so to speak, and to have regard to each local area plan within each local authority area. I remember from my days as Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government that the local area plan is supposed to be taken fully into account when designing a development plan as it is a subset of the development plan. There should be no likelihood of a local area plan being in conflict with a development plan and it would not happen. The Dublin transport authority will be required to take a strategic overview of seven local authority areas. County Meath, for example, could have 20 or 30 local area plans and it would be neither feasible, practical nor a good thing for the authority to examine each one. I ask the Senator to withdraw the amendment because it is not necessary. The spirit of the amendment is more than catered for in this section of the Bill.

The Grangegorman Development Agency is carrying out a master plan but it is not required by legislation to do so. The legislation requires it to carry out a strategic plan. For this reason the Bill contains a reference to the strategic plan. There is no statutory requirement for the agency to carry out a master plan but when doing the strategic plan, it will be required to take this Bill into account. I have no difficulty with the concept of the Senator's amendment No. 10 but there is no reference to a master plan so it cannot be included in this legislation. I ask the Senator to withdraw this amendment.

With regard to amendment No. 11, the purpose of section 12(5)(h) is to give effect to that recommendation of the DTA establishment team that the authority should be required to take account of longer distance travel trends in discharging its functions without being obliged to facilitate them. The shorter we can make commuting journeys and the more they can be eliminated, the better. I see the Senator's point about internal travel. Having considered it, the Senator's amendment would probably be better accommodated by the amendment of section 12(5)(f) to require the authority to have regard to demographic, social ,travel and social trends in the greater Dublin area. If the Senator is willing to withdraw the amendment, I will undertake to bring an amendment on Committee Stage in the Dáil that meets the intent. I propose an amendment at that time to require the authority to have regard to the demographic, economic, social, travel and transport trends in the greater Dublin area which will meet the intent of the Senator's amendment.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: I thank the Minister for his reply. I take his point regarding amendment No. 9. He is correct to say that we should not be in a situation where a local area plan would be in conflict with a city or county development plan. The thinking behind this amendment was in tandem with delivery of local area plans to try to deliver integration of land use and transport and it therefore was considered worthy of inclusion in the Bill.

With regard to the strategic and master plan point about the Grangegorman Development Agency, the important consideration for me is that the Dublin transport authority should be aware of the transport needs which the creation of this campus will place on the north side of Dublin. If that point is recognised by the wording in the Bill, then it will be acceptable to me. I hope one of the priorities of the new body will be the recognition of the issues and challenges and taking action to do something about them.

With regard to amendment No. 11, I am happy to accept the Minister's point and I look forward to his proposed modification on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments Nos. 10 and 11 not moved.

An Cathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 12 and 16 are cognate and may be discussed together by agreement.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: I move amendment No. 12:

In page 16, subsection (, line 7, after "with" to insert "and have regard to the proposals of".

This amendment refers to one of themes we discussed earlier. A recurring theme in the discussions that have taken place in the short period I have been a Member of the Seanad is the question of where all the power has gone. We are faced with very severe problems and challenges regarding the transport needs of this region and the environmental challenges for the country. Our electorate and our country is looking for us to respond to these issues and to understand them. The section currently provides that this authority shall prepare a transport strategy and consult with the specified bodies and persons.

Many of these organisations and people, particularly the local authorities and Ministers who are specified, have been elected by their constituents to perform specific roles which often include improving the transport infrastructure in an area and devising a transport strategy that tackle the issue faced by communities. I am concerned that the language in regard to consulting could get us to a point that this authority would look at the input received from the organisations, particularly that from elected representatives, and then do something completely different, which is possible, or something that does not meet the needs of the bodies specified.

My amendments Nos. 12 and 16 seek to insert the phrase "and have regard to any proposals made by" in the relevant subsections. Bodies such as the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, Grangegorman Development Agency and the local authorities have a superb grasp of the needs of the particular sectors or communities they represent. There must be some obligation on the Dublin transport authority to respond to and take account of the points made by these organisations as opposed to merely participating in a consultation process. We must not allow a situation to develop where local authorities and Members of the Oireachtas find that the Dublin transport authority is merely engaged in a sham process and is taking no account of the issues raised by them.

Deputy Noel Dempsey: We always strive to ensure legislation is as accurate and precise as possible. However, there is always a danger, as much on the Government's part as on that of the Opposition, of taking an unnecessarily prescriptive approach. The entire thrust of the legislation is to ensure, via a process of consultation, that full account is taken of the various interested parties. The Senator has acknowledged that the legislation provides for a level of consultation and interplay between the various agencies. That is extremely important.

In general, bodies such as the proposed Dublin transport authority do not engage in consultation for the fun of it only to ignore the opinions furnished. I recognise this is not what Senator Donohoe implied. As I said, there is a danger of being overly prescriptive. Rather than getting into an ideological battle over this, and if the Senator is prepared to withdraw the amendments, I propose returning to this on Report Stage. I envisage an amendment to insert a wording such as "will consult with and consider the views of the various bodies and agencies". That would address Senator Donohoe's concerns.

Senator Paschal Donohoe: I am prepared to withdraw these amendments on the understanding that the Minister will deal with this on Report Stage. My objective is to ensure that the consultation process between the transport authority and the various agencies is meaningful and will influence the authority's decisions. The Minister's suggestion is welcome.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Acting Chairman (Senator Kieran Phelan): Amendments Nos. 13, 17 and 61 are related and may be discussed together by agreement.

Senator Brendan Ryan: I move amendment No. 13:

In page 16, subsection (, line 12, after "GDA" to insert the following:

"and in particular shall invite public submissions on the transport strategy".

These amendments refer to the need for public consultation on the transport strategy, integrated implementation plan and traffic management plan, respectively. They are designed to ensure that a formal process of public submissions will occur, as currently happens with development plans, rather than selected consultations with interested parties, as set out in section 12(. Notwithstanding the reference to local communitie